Island Studio Project so far

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Aug 2006 9:28 pm

Some of you know I am building a studio,
and home on this side of the planet.

Well they have floor and columns up.
This is a few days old,
so there are now large sections of walls up
and beams at the 5, 6.4 and 7 meter heights
are being framed and steel rebar'd this week.

I have 20mm of hard rubber under the sandfilled cement block walls.

I have not so far found a reasonably priced
isolation element for floating a floor.
But it may not be necessary here.
Maybe concentrate on ceiling reflections before floating a floor.

The control room will be
9.6 meters long, 7.64 meters wide,
and 5 meters tall below where
the moderately peaked roof trusses start.
It will be around 6 meters tall at the peak.
Enough dimentions to make bass responce
at least a resonably accurate possibility.

TC Furlong and the other engineering types here
are welcome to make comments on control room design,
and general philosophy, for stereo and 5.1 surround layout.

Stereo has one phantom sound stage,
but 5.1 Suround sound has 26 potential phantom stages,
and no general concensus within the industry
about how control rooms should be layed out.

Phillipe Newell's book is my design bible at the moment,
Because he acknowleges the LACK of any viable standard,
yet gives much info on a host of variables.

Mind bending reading for sure.

The studio areas are 12.4 meters wide
Studio 1 is around 11 meters deep at the point,
and aprox. 6.5 meters too the roof trusses.

There will be rounded a hot room for noisy stuff in one corner,
with a cement floored amp booth above.

And a D shaped block vocal booth
and a 2nd stacked above amp booth
along the flat wall.
An angled cement foor and floating flat floor will be
in both the overhead booths for isolation.

Both to be rough stone faced for diffusion.

Studio 2 and 3 are 7 meters to trusses (30 feet at the peak).
They are odd shaped spaces aproximately 5 meters by 6 meters
with moving walls, ultimately.
Drums and piano spaces.

There will be a huge, laminated glass, wall with all panes angled up in Studio's 2+3.
With a view of the islands off in the distance.

Here is construction as of last week from above the control room.
Note worker's height's vis a vis the dropping levels of control, S1, and S2+3

(Yes Duck Pluckers fans, this is the location of "Cousins Housing" and post bean dinner disaster shots... LOL )

Here is the floor plan, but an out dated version.

The inter studio stairs are now semi-circular and at either side
of the S1 and S2+3 bounderies. Not the middle as shown.
With entrance doors in the moving walls.

The control room stairs are on the right,
The "hub" is the hot room, and never was
supposed to have all these swinging doors.
He forgot the vocal booth... again!

The big cone is for sight lines and video camera view.

Traditional architects barely grasp most of the studio design concepts needed,
so continuous revisions were needed by me.
Even during construction, as they missed VERY important points, for me.

And mai bpen rai, (no matter, don't worry about it),
just doesn't cut it, when the physics of sound are concerned.

I am from the old school where a great room sound
should be part of a good recording, and is an asset,
not something to be avoided and then "fixed in the mix",
with digital tech tools.

Still things are moving along.

PS. Donna, move this to Music if you think that's a better place.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 August 2006 at 10:58 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 22 Aug 2006 4:25 am

Looks good; I'm impressed.
I thought it was going to be a grass shack out back.

I agree about the big room sound.

Work in progress pictures would be nice.

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 22 Aug 2006 4:38 am

Looks great,David. You are a lucky ducky!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 22 Aug 2006 9:46 pm

Well it will take longer than preview to get running,
but I will get it sounding good.
A lot more wall is up now, but my camera batt's were dead yesterday.
Oh well.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 23 Aug 2006 4:55 am

I get great sound from recording in my living room but it doesn't have the ambience your place will have. Also I use a drum machine and then add a single track at a time so I don't have to deal with isolation or loud volume issues. The carpeting pretty much kills reflections. Keep posting update pics and even one showing the setting/surroundings. I am impressed!

Greg

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 23 Aug 2006 9:41 am

Dog gone it DD....you are living the life that many of us have dreamed of at some time in our life. Living in a tropical paradise, but, with all of the modern technological conveniences that you want or need.

Keep us poor SGF members updated on your studio building project so we can drool and dream of "what might have been".

------------------
<img height=100 width=70 src=http://genejones.bizland.com/Scan10095.jpg>
www.genejones.com

Joe McHam · Post by **Joe McHam** » 23 Aug 2006 12:03 pm

D^2,,man that looks like paradise.. Is the tropical atmosphere..palm trees..included in the session costs? Very nice indeed!! Nice backdrop for a CD...

------------------
Joe in Houston
Excel Superb S-12 8/6

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 23 Aug 2006 12:23 pm

I took a loooong time finding a plot.
Around 8 months and 100 plots later,

I managed a view of 2 small islands;
Mudson and another un-named??,
A cement road, full AC mains,
and water from a up mountain waterfall.

It's at 103 to 96 meters elevation, facing south, downhill,
over the vally between 2 points to the sea.
Not in vatican banker mountain top territory,
but good enough to justify the effort.

Gene it is interesting here, bizarre and interesting.
And there is another wholey different take
on music;
pop, rock to ultra-trad here,
so it's really good for the ears.

Convineineces, well we do have refrigerators,
and indoor plumming... and Protools even

I still must run a 5k watt APC uninteruptable power supply/conditionaer
on the whole place, guitar amps included,
since the power is so flakey.

In a great room even a small recording system can do super things.
Got tools, just need the workshop.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 23 August 2006 at 08:41 PM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 24 Aug 2006 1:42 am

Well Bro D, before we know it, there's gonna be some hits comin' outta Thailand huh ?

don't ferget to send the invitations fer the opening so we can get in on yer tropical paradise

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 Aug 2006 8:45 am

Dude, you ALWAYS got one!

Empty your mail box so I can send you a link.
b0b asked for it not to be posted, "as flame bait".
But let's just say it HAS hit one chart running.

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 24 Aug 2006 5:48 pm

Hi David,
Without digging in and really getting my head around your project, I'd just comment that it is my strong opinion that it's way more about the vibe than it is about the ultra complex science of acoustics. BUT there are some pretty basic things that you need to observe. One is parallel surfaces. IMHO simply put...flutter echos suck. From your floor plan, it looks like there are a couple of parallel walls. It's OK if either build in absorption or if you diffuse them well and I don't think that rough faced block will provide enough diffusion. The other thing I would look at is the arc on the glass walls in the small rooms. In my experience, (and believe me, I'm no big time studsio designer but I have measured a bazillion performance spaces) when you focus reflections back toward a point, it's never good. The major mistake that most studios make is allowing the ceiling to be too low. It looks like that won't be a problem in your rooms. I am not a big fan of observing pre-determined ratios and it sounds like your LWH are well within the recommended limits.

As far as floating the floor goes, lately, it is primarily done in urban areas where trains or subways or traffic noise and the low frequencies that these create must be dealt with through isolation. I'd definitely focus on reflections. Here is one approach to managing reflections that I think you may want to consider. Flexible acoustics...nothing new here but it's logical that you may want to have a combination of absorption and diffusion that you can experiment with and place in various locations based on your needs. Have you considered a grid arrangement for the ceiling? Works great for hanging acoustics materials and if you plan on lighting for video/film, you'll never be sorry.

When it's all said and done, my advice is usually this. Figure out what you like and "borrow" the basic theme. I really liked the vibe in the old United Western Recorders rooms in Hollywood (later renamed Ocean Way). United Western's acoustics were mainly random hole acoustic tile. I recently found a source for that material if you are interested.

Anyway, I could blab on and on about acoustic environments. I'll spare you.

Best wishes for a fabulous looking and sounding place. If you have any questions, I'd be glad to chime in...(I had to put one steel guitar pun in)

TC

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 Aug 2006 9:59 pm

Hi TC.
I knew I would get informed feedback from you.

Yes the vibe is VERY important.
Musicans who are relaxed and " feel" a good sound
make better performances. And comeback again.
If I can make use of "current practice" in acoustics usage,
backed by verifiable theory, to make this happen,
well that's the goal.

Ok, the big glass windows have each pane angled outward from the top,
so that reflections will tend to go upward.
I have lots of non parralel ceiling and it is
9 or so meters up at that end.
Also there is some arc around the room there.

Flutter echo sucks for sure. I'm a bass player
and notice this more than most people.

The eventual moving walls will also have glass angled upwards.
The s2 s3 dividing wall will be off parralel to the end walls.

The opposite sides from hard walls will likely have
1.5m meter rock wool compressed to 1 meter
with 5 3 4 4 3 5 4 5 3 5 3 4 4 3 5
solid grid face, spacing ratios in front.
A combined deep absorbtion/diffusion, facing diffusion.

I have already built several wooden hemispherical diffusors
for the small house's drum room.
Nothing scientific, random works too.
And Thai builders are pretty good with random...
These seem to have added a bit of improvement to
the drum sound in a relatively tiny space.

I am also going to test some point source defraction panels.

The practicalities of constructing the shell,
left compromises un-avoidable,
but with the knowlege that ways exist
to ameliorate the inevitable issues.

My big internal debate is whether to do a
pure LEDE, pure Non-environmental control room.
Or predominantly a Non-environmental with some LEDE atributes.
Since I do expect to record acoustically IN the control room
from time to time.

The control room shell dimentions are based on
Peter D'Antonio's best estimate of a good RPG type room.
Of course the peaked ceiling adds a infinte number of variables,
both positive and negative.

The controlromm shell @ 9.6 meters long
based on 20° temperature
the room is down to 35 hz wave length.
20 hz being 17.2 meters long.

Across the room at 7.64 meters it's about down to 45 hz.

Control room is 5 meters to wall tops and 1.98 to peak
So @ 6.98 max height 49.3 hz possible full wavelength.

At least managable for bass responce after damping.

I made an effort to base each room on an inverted ratio relation
to the ajoining room and the control room.
and deformed them as much as could be from parallelism.
Not a terribly cost effective exercise...

Rough faced rock of 6"+ aproximate height from arc'd surfaces
should add some live diffusion down to usable freqencies, I believe.

I was fortunate enough to have a 12 meter allowable building height,
but needed to be reasonable about it on site.
around 9 meters at the far end celing peak
s 2 and s3 are 7.1 meters to wall tops
and 6 to wall tops respectively,
and another 2.72 meters to peak for the 3 recording spaces.
With the intention of having the ceilings being very diffuse, with some damping.

I am trying to have as few "industry standard"
preconcieved notions,
overiding my personal observations over the years,
or locking me into ONLY one logic,
because "that's how it's done".
Many theoretically great rooms just never worked well in practice.

And some theoretically bad rooms sounded great.
see: Rudy Van Gelder’s living room.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 August 2006 at 07:51 AM.]

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 25 Aug 2006 2:20 pm

David,

I really do think that you are on the right track combining current practice with verifiable theory. But be sure to ask this question when figuring out angles and predicting reflections. - Where will the reflection go?- To me, the answer - upwards -is not enough. What if the source of the reflection is coming from high on a wall or from the ceiling? It will reflect downwards. And one of the focus points might very well be at your vocal mic or an acoustic instrument mic.

I have never been an LEDE fan for a control room. It weirds me out. I like a room with more tempered vibrancy. To me the DE sucks the HF life out. But if you put some diffusion in front of the DE it is good and it really only needs to scatter the high freqs.

I like to think about a project like this: Designing and building an acoustic space is kind of like building an acoustic guitar. You really need to try to listen as you go and shave a litte bit here and there and tweak it as you go to get it the way you want it. Are you considering any variable acoustics?

TC

Donna Dodd · Post by **Donna Dodd** » 25 Aug 2006 6:41 pm

David - How about your place for Christmas? Looks like it'd hold the whole Forum crew!!!

I know you are excited about everything coming together for you in your new "life". No one deserves it any more than you!!!

Donna

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 Aug 2006 4:20 am

Donna, thank you so much.
You are our forum house mother, taking good care of us all.

Designing and building an acoustic space is kind of like building an acoustic guitar. You really need to try to listen as you go and shave a litte bit here and there and tweak it as you go to get it the way you want it. Are you considering any variable acoustics?

Exactly, add something ans see how it fits, add another etc.
Some time back track and remove something to see how what's left works too.

Variable accoustics are a definite, after seeing how the IRCAM room in Paris could be changed.
But the cost in many ways is up there too.

As to glass reflecting downwards.
It is of course possible.
The ceiling will not be flat, a pitched semi cathederal,
and will have diffusion added ESPECIALLY/ first
at reflection zones relating to windows.
I will have sound sources at ground level heading up 6-9 meters,
and then diffusing before they can comeback and hit a window.
Of course this will be an ongoing excercise.

I plan on getting a cheap speaker and attaching a long interior damped tube
and use it to bounce pointed source sounds around to see what I hear.
Easiest way to hear room reflections
and much less source.
As well as use Spectral Foo and QTC-1 omni's
for more emprical datum.

In anycase it IS an adventure.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 August 2006 at 06:41 AM.]

Joe Casey · Post by **Joe Casey** » 27 Aug 2006 10:40 am

Wow maybe you could make that the retreat where recording artist want to go for rest and recording. I remember when the Stones rented a Farm studio in Brookfield Mass.for isolation and general relaxed condition. I would have trouble getting off the beach to record.Looks like Paradise to me. I was in that part of the world in 66 but I did not get too much rest.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Aug 2006 7:50 pm

Joe,
yeah Longview Farm was a nice place.
J. Geils did an album or two there also.

I am thinking of this as an "escape clause" kinda place.
1 month lockouts, do what you want.
The rest of the time I do what I want.
But basically any gig that pays it off is cool.

It gets so hot you can only spend so much
time outside on the beach.

Since it is an island, you can't completely lose your musicians,
if they step outside for a bit,
no more than 30-40 minutes away
anywhere they may go.
In Bangkok they could disapear for days...
And come back minus guitars and totally trashed...

Besides, most sessions are night time anyways.

Right now I am brushing up on my geometry
and algebra,
more or less, after decades of disuse.
Just placing speakers in a room is a LOT
more difficult than it seems.
Otherwise it's totally hit or miss.
DRAT![This message was edited by David L. Donald on 27 August 2006 at 10:14 PM.]

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 28 Aug 2006 4:20 am

Uh, er, um.... WOW!!!

How freaking cool David! So many aspects you have to consider. Yea, like TC said, vibe rules for sure. When a space is large enough, the math becomes less important. I find that the LEDE thing really helps when the space is small and the modes (and nodes) are dominant. In larger control rooms, I think diffusion is your best friend. I just helped a local guy tweak the reflections in a new SSL room. Pretty big space, but low ceiling. Currently that room has the front corners pretty well bass trapped and the front wall (no window there) has just a bit of absorption, especially placed for any first reflections from the backs of the monitors. With his low ceiling, he's got a thin cloud suspended at an angle. In that case he's absorbing the first overhead reflections. The back of the room has a couch and some cheaper diffusion. The rear corners are also absorbed. You know right corners reflect back at the source, from any position. A lively and un-fluttered room with bass bumps tamed and first reflections tamed is what I like to strive for.

So David, how do Auset and I book some time there?

Brad

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 28 Aug 2006 4:42 am

WOW DAVID

Man i;m proud for you!!!!

Now i don't know much,but wheres the KITCHEN!???? hehehehhee

YOU KNOW HOW TO COOK TOOOOOOO;

GOD BLESS MY FRIEND
farris

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Aug 2006 6:55 am

Hi Brad, I was expecting you eventually.

Ok lets see.
Yes, vibe of course.
I have found some large old driftwood trees,
and with an elephant I can get them out.
Half trees mounted on the walls will help
with diffusion and look funky.

I made friends with the elephant treking tout
at the bottom of my road.
I loaned him $20 twice during low season.
No problem getting an elephant for this.
He paid me back, but now owes me a favor.

Also one of the work crew is a fine artist,
and I bought an pencil airbrush system,
and am letting him use it too learn the new style painting.
I will have lots of open cloth area to make look island like.

As to control room math :
frequency cut off at pressure zone for
longest wall
9.6m x 2 = 19.2m wave send/return distance

speed sound 344 / 19.2 = 17.91 hz room cut off.

Pretty low, down to Bosendorfer left hand low C
give or take a hz.

Side wall 7.64m x 2 = 15.28 send/return distance
speed sound 344 / 15.28m = 22.51 hz

To top of walls = 34.4 hz
too peak in ceiling
6.98 x 2 = 13.96 = 24.64hz

So a variable bass responce floor to ceiling of 24.64 to 34.4 hz.

Control room area (B) 73.344 square meters
Room volume (Rv) 366.72 cubic meters,
not counting ceiling vault prism.

Ceiling vault prism volume calc.
B (base area) 73.344 m B=lw
h (height of prism) 1.98m
V = Bh or 145.22112 m3

TOTAL VOLUME = Rv + CvpV 511.94 m3
Within the basic outer control room space.

17.91hz, 22.51 hz & variable 24.64hz to 34.4 hz

Or single wave non-returning
35.82hz, 45.02hz & variable 49.28hz to 68.8hz

Pretty decent basic low frequency numbers.

I have not calc'd multiples in relation to actual notes.
But it will cause a multiple of nodes and peaks,
that if I am lucky will interact sympathetically,
as a good place to start.

I do have already 16 RPG Skyline diffusor panels,
sort of like the NYC skyline. For the back wall.
But plan on having a grid wall behind them.

Also some RPG Modex corners in 40hz, 63hz, and 80hz freqencies for low end control at presure zones.

And a Studio In A Box, with extra wall panels.
I will place these at secondary reflection points I think.

Because I want strong 5.1 surround capabilities,
I am leaning to a Non-Environmental concept,
DELE
with some LEDE style diffusion in back (skylines)
to make the best stero mixing possiblities predominant.

As a bass playing engineer, bass responce in mixing rooms
has been the bane of my tranquil existance.
I determined that if nothing else this control room
will let ME sound like I want to,
if the reproducing system at the listener
is half way decent.

I have been debating putting in a cubic meter of rockwool,
at the monitor wall to side wall junctures,
to damp either the preasure zones or velocity change
at an edge point.

I also think I will make multiple monitor placment points.
Basically a long shelf with different width facing covers
so I can lift out a panel, slide the Genelec 1032's left or right,
and reattach the cover panel.

And then listen and test for best room to driver responce.

To many studios are built to a theoretical best,
and then because monitors were built set in, there wasn't much chance of fine tuning.
I will avoid that conundrum.

Sub woofer will be a bit to the right side, since basses are on that side for classical symphonies.
But same idea, I won't pin it's placement down till I see how it's modes are working.

When I am happy then some cement blocks might be put in.

I still haven't decided on front wall height.
I got 5 meters to play with, so I could go pretty high, and add a 1 m cubic rockwool overhanging sofit above 4 meters
for velocity edge damping, like the sides,
and let the rest fly to the roof peak.

I will experiment with hole grid diffusor cloud up above, most likely.
Since some earlier reflections will come back from there.
Many small points of entry into a rockwool damper.

Ah so MANY variables.
If any one has comments on the numbers, please expound.
D5
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 August 2006 at 08:37 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Aug 2006 7:12 am

Farris old buddy.

Due to the oil prices screaming up there to high,
I am foregoing the island style house for the moment.
BUT, the office will also be 5 meters tall
with a small peaked ceiling.

I plan to loft it and have a chalet style
living space fit for two ; Cha cha and I.
There was to be a kitchenette in the office anyway,
so I just make it a full kitchen.
And I should have 3 levels in all
living / sleeping / storage.

Brad, you and Auset are welcome any time,
even before it's finished.
This place is a nice escape anyway.

We can trade studio time for mastering time... he he he!

As of today they have most outer walls up
except where the overhead beams are being suported by scafolding.
They started pouring the beams today.
but it will be a week before the scafolding can come down.
Then they can finish the walls.
Roof trusses are being built off site,
and will be assembled and welded in early sept.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 August 2006 at 08:29 AM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 29 Aug 2006 12:27 am

Farris, every body knows you ain't nuthin' if you can't cook & Bro D sho' can

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 29 Aug 2006 8:16 am

Looks very nice, David. It's a real treat for any engineer to be able to design and scratch-build their working space. And such a great location! Best wishes with the project.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 29 Aug 2006 7:44 pm

Mark and Cb thanks for the good words.

Control rooms are more often than not
crap from a bass players point of view.
So I want a room I can love.
Given enough room size and time
I think I can get that here.

The location, yeah it is cool.
Since you spend so many hours in a studio
during a project,
it is important not to step out the door
and find yourself in an industrial wasteland
or just a depressing or too busy location.
You need to decompress a bit regularly.

Also staring at a computer screen for hours on end,
the idea you can just take a long look
through the palms to an island in the sea,
is great for the eyes,
and that short term recharge needed
for returning and doing good work.

Becoming a "studio mushroom",
a parralell to the "bar room tan"
is something any working engineer can tell you is not such a outside idea.

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 30 Aug 2006 5:04 am

David,

If you are using Genelec 1032's you will be doing near field or mid field monitoring at most. Right? (BTW awesome choice) most of the LF response in the monitors comes from the way they are coupled (or better yet decoupled) to the room. I have a great decoupling method that I would be glad to share. It get's really tricky when integtating a subwoofer, but I think it's better to start with properly aligned full range system and add subs to taste. I wonder about the shelf you mention for monitor positioning. I'd think that a well designed stand (with decoupling of course)would be more appropriate.

Also, I really like the idea of the cubic meter of rock wool at the junction of monitor and side walls. That's an evil area for sure. And you can always partially cover it to achieve the "tuning" of the absorbtion.

Oh ya, and more progress photos please. I really want to see a shot of your local construction elephant at work.
TC