How do you play with a fiddle without clashing?

[Evan Searcy]

Hi all,

I recently got picked up by a band that includes acoustic guitar, fiddle, bass, drums, and now pedal steel. I played my first gig with them weekend before last. Listening back to the recording, the fiddle player and I were clashing a lot, especially on fills. I think we had a hard time listening to each other for one, but also anticipating what the other was going to do, and when the other was going to chime in. I tried to drop back (especially since I’m the new guy), but in the recording it still sounds like I was playing way out in front more than half the time. I tried to do some comping on songs that were too fast for swells, but even that didn’t sound right most of the time.

As a steel player, how do y’all work more harmoniously with the fiddle? Any tips on delegation of duty, timing, phrasing, or otherwise are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Evan

Edit: grammar

[scott murray]

take turns playing fills and that goes for all instruments. eye contact can work wonders

if someone plays fills on a verse then they should pass it to the next person for the chorus or whatever comes after that verse

just listen to all the classic records, they never play on top of each other. but it amazes me how often it happens on the bandstand

[Evan Searcy]

take turns playing fills and that goes for all instruments. eye contact can work wonders

if someone plays fills on a verse then they should pass it to the next person for the chorus or whatever comes after that verse

just listen to all the classic records, they never play on top of each other. but it amazes me how often it happens on the bandstand

You know, he mentioned the verses and choruses thing, and I guess we were doing that to a degree. It was difficult being on opposite sides of the bandstand from one another (and him being relatively behind me). Should I try staying mostly silent outside of my assigned section?

[Roger Crawford]

An experienced fiddle player will know how and when to play. The problem I’ve encountered with inexperienced fielders is that when they comp, it’s way too busy and sounds like fills. Without knowing the skill level you’re dealing with, it may require some polite suggestions to watch and listen to some good videos.

[Dennis Detweiler]

I always like to play next to the other lead/fill instruments. If that's not possible and you have a good mixing board, you can mic the steel and the fiddle and assign each other to the opposite side of the stage in the monitor speakers only. Then you can hear each other and adjust the volume of each other to your own taste.

[Dave Meis]

Lay out. Both of you. Playing on top of each other takes the 'character' out of both instruments, and 2 fretless instruments has HUGE potential for disaster.

[Bob Hoffnar]

Work out some twining parts. It can be super fun on stage and is impressive for the audience. Other than that maybe both of you should stop comping completely. There are usually 3 other guys on stage handling that duty already and they probably don’t need or want your help. I make that mistake myself pretty often. I’ll try to help out but it only makes it worse.

There are ways to play at the same time and have it work but it is pretty tricky to pull off. Working out twining or doubling parts is a great way to get your head in the right place.

[Howard Parker]

1. Arrange pre determined backups

2. Stage communication. A wink, head nod or a head shake to decline. Heck, I've even pointed at a player to mean "you take it".


Not just with fiddles. With all soloing or active backup instrumentation.

h

[K Maul]

On one of my gigs in Nashville I was told by a prominent player that the perfect example of a Minor 2nd interval was fiddle and steel playing in unison!

[Evan Searcy]

An experienced fiddle player will know how and when to play. The problem I’ve encountered with inexperienced fielders is that when they comp, it’s way too busy and sounds like fills. Without knowing the skill level you’re dealing with, it may require some polite suggestions to watch and listen to some good videos.

He’s a great fiddler (much better than I am a steeler, really). We probably just come from the experience of being the only “true” lead instruments in an arrangement. I think I’m going to drop out on comping altogether and come in just for the occasional fill or swell until we get more time together (and rehearsals) under our belt

[Evan Searcy]

Sorry for the double post; still figuring this whole forum thing out.

Lay out. Both of you. Playing on top of each other takes the 'character' out of both instruments, and 2 fretless instruments has HUGE potential for disaster.

Yes, there were times where it was fingerpicks on a chalkboard. I’d be sharp, he’d be flat, and it would produce an awful sound. Of course, I only noticed that really in the playback, and I’m sure the audience didn’t pick up on it much if at all, but wow, was it a disgrace to the beauty of the two instruments. I think I’m going to more or less drop out completely on rhythm aside from the occasional accenting swell (lay the foundation for him, maybe) until we get a better feel for each other’s tendencies and a bit more time under our belts.

Work out some twining parts. It can be super fun on stage and is impressive for the audience. Other than that maybe both of you should stop comping completely. There are usually 3 other guys on stage handling that duty already and they probably don’t need or want your help. I make that mistake myself pretty often. I’ll try to help out but it only makes it worse.

There are ways to play at the same time and have it work but it is pretty tricky to pull off. Working out twining or doubling parts is a great way to get your head in the right place.

That’s a great idea. We just might do that once we get a few rehearsals in. My only thing is that, in the playback, the band sounded a bit dull with just the core 3 instruments (bass-y?) whenever neither the fiddle player nor I were playing. My phone mic does pretty good recordings, but it was by no means in a position to get a fully balanced, lifelike mix either. I think I probably will still drop out, I just don’t want the band leader to think I’m being lazy (lol)

[Donny Hinson]

One of the skills that must be learned when you're playing in a band situation is trading your backup lines back and forth. It's not talked about too much, but it is essential if you want to play professionally. I've been lucky enough to play with some outstanding musicians, and almost every one of them knew how to do this, and that's how I learned. Pick either a 4-bar or an 8-bar "handoff", and if you have to, signal to the other player (often by just a glance their way) that it's time for them to step in. Once this skill is learned, and as long as you're playing with good musicians, the effect is seamless. You no longer have to practice and memorize every song fill and say "I'll going to do this fill, and you do that one", it all comes forth automatically. For an example, if the next song up was Price's "The Other Woman", all I'd have to do is to look at the singer and other lead instrument. If they both turned and looked my way, I'd instantly kick off with the first four bars of the (8-bar) intro, and then glance at the lead player. Then, he knew to step in and do the second 4-bars, after which it was time for the vocal. It does sometimes get trickier if there's a lot of lead instruments in the band, like lead, steel, keys, and violin, but it can still be done. In most instances, you either still hand off equally, or sometimes the players can look at each player, signalling someone else to take their turn.

As to playing in tune with another non-fixed pitch instrument, like a steel with a violin, normally somebody has to take precedence. Of course, this isn't an issue if you're both keyed into the tonal center of the band. (Which is how it should be!) If you're both headed down the same road, listening to the rhythm section and playing in tune with them, it usually works out pretty well. But if it's just him listening to you and you listening to him, it can quickly turn into dueling chainsaws. You're fudging to get in tune with him, and he's fudging to get with you, and the rest of the band is left wondering what in the Sam Hill is going on. That part does sometimes take practice and preparation. It goes without saying that twinning takes good ears, good sense, and a lot of skill.

[D Schubert]

The best advice for lead instruments is, when in doubt put your hands in your pockets and listen for 1/2 a verse, let the rhythm section do their thing and let the singer get the lyrics out front. Easy advice to dispense, harder to follow.

[Dave Mudgett]

The old adage applies - "When in doubt, lay out." And there is NO PENALTY for everybody leaving space. Not every bloody space has to be filled.

But we did just discuss this in the general context of How Does Your Band Decide Who Plays Fills When? - see this thread for some other ideas - viewtopic.php?t=407994

I play with a fiddle/mandolin player in the band I most frequently play with right now. Technically, I direct traffic on solos and fills, but I rarely need to. If one of us hears the other start to play, the other generally just shuts up or does purely rhythm figures. There's a lot of bluegrass involved, no drummer, so chopping is frequently appropriate to keep the pulse going.

[Joel Jackson]

Everything everyone above said. One thing that I find can work well backing the fiddle is chiming harmonics. Can be complimentary while managing to stay out of the way.

[Bobby D. Jones]

If you replaced another steel player, Or another lead instrument, Things usually go rather smooth and easy.
If they added you and steel guitar to the band, You are like a red headed step child at a family reunion.
The fiddle player has had a free run, To add any thing, At any time he wanted.
You need to get the band leader to listen to the recordings with you. See what he says about how the audience hears the band. He is the boss. If the band leader likes what he hears, You are in a no win situation.
Then its your choice Stay, or Leave.

I was added to a band to play steel. They had a lead guitar player that had played all lead for the band for some time. He would walk on me on every song. At a show, The sit in bass player sung "Together Again", The lead player took the opening run, And played like it was his song.
I sat at steel, Rolled my bar hand and pick hand over and set there with a on my face. I thought about just quitting the band for a week or so. COVID hit, Music shows shut down and the band fell apart. Fate was good to me.

[Lee Baucum]

Here is an older, somewhat similar, discussion:

viewtopic.php?t=266864

[James P Mitchell]

There's clashing as far as intonation - my first pedal steel gig was in a band with a violinist (not a fiddler!) and we had some big time intonation issues between us. Probably mostly me as I was just getting started with pedal steel. In general I don't have that issue with people I play with now.

As far as filling, you need to make eye contact and give a nod. In your case it should be pretty easy because you're just going back and forth between fiddle and steel for fills. Note that if you're swapping verses and chorii you may end up in a situation where you're always filling over the same section of the tune. Unless I have a specific part (say on the chorus), it's too much for me to remember who's filling where and usually the bands I'm in just figure that out on the fly.

For example: I just did an album release with a 9 piece band. Two acoustic guitars, two electric guitars, me (on pedal steel, baritone and electric), keys, bass, drums, and harp. It wasn't possible to have lines of sight for everyone so we just designated one of the electric guys as 'fill master' and he nodded to whoever was going to fill/solo. That ended up being a pretty good way to do it.

[James P Mitchell]

For an example, if the next song up was Price's "The Other Woman", all I'd have to do is to look at the singer and other lead instrument. If they both turned and looked my way, I'd instantly kick off with the first four bars of the (8-bar) intro, and then glance at the lead player.

I'm a little confused by this. In all the recordings I am finding, The Other Woman has a 4 bar intro, a classic 1511. Fiddle takes the whole thing.

[Chris Templeton]

Maybe you can work up some twins.
Fiddle and steel are both fretless instruments and this can invite clashes.
How often do you have band practice, Evan?

[John Larson]

One of my favorite fiddle and steel songs of all time.
Son Volt - "Windfall"

[Richard Sinkler]

Most fiddle players I've play with over the last 50 years, most overplay or are out of tune.

I vote for having them play in the parking lot.

[David Ellison]

Chiming, of course! Make it whistle. Everyone in the band will love it, especially the fiddle player.

[John De Maille]

Well..... you could work it out with the fiddle player first, as to who plays what and when. Or, just make eye contact with him as to who and what and when to play.
Another is to leave it up to the leader as to when he wants you to come in and play.
However, there are certain tunes that require more fiddle than steel and vice versa.
And, that requires some rehearsing and working out the parts to be played.
If, just if, somebody plays out of tune I.e. "The fiddle player" and you're in tune, tact must be used to correct the situation. Things can get out of hand soon and cause resentment.
Hope everything works out for you.