Playing in tune

[Dennis Detweiler]

I'm guessing a little vibrato or chorus would fit. Especially if you are in doubt of your ear. The most vulnerable combination is the A pedal with F lever which has to be a little east of the fret unless you tune every string, pedal, knee and 3rd to 440, which, doesn't sound in tune with anything.

[Craig A Davidson]

Jim does the tuner just rest on the guitar or does it attach somehow?

[Tom Hodges]

I will second the Cello Drone Tone Tool. Man, that has helped me on PSG and voice. I just take a couple of keys every couple of days for about 10 minutes. For me, at least, it has been very helpful.

https://www.dronetonetool.com/

I use this also, helps with my intonation somewhat. I also use the Functional Ear Trainer app on my phone. Anything to help these old, tired and damaged ears.

I also have the drone tone tool but I recently stumbled on to the "TE Tuner" app (Tonal Energy Tuner & Metronome) that is great imo. A lot of practice options. Great for single note playing the scales in tune or harmonized scales, full chords. You can have it hold the tone or go up and down the scale and repeat or move up to the next interval step after it cycles. All with metronome tempo options.

[Kevin Hatton]

The number one rule in our show band was to synchronize our on stage tuners once a month. As long as everyone’s tuners were dead 0 at A 440 we never had a problem. I ran across more than one tuner that was not accurate. We never made that mistake. Know your guitar’s tuning idiosyncrasies also.

[Jim Fogarty]

The number one rule in our show band was to synchronize our on stage tuners once a month. As long as everyone’s tuners were dead 0 at A 440 we never had a problem. I ran across more than one tuner that was not accurate. We never made that mistake. Know your guitar’s tuning idiosyncrasies also.

Very FIRST pedal steel gig I did was a duo with an acoustic guitarist. During soundcheck, I simply could NOT play in tune. I was mortified and gave up and grabbed my armpit guitar. Well, backstage before we went on, I was playing his Martin a bit, and something made me try tuning it with my Peterson app. Yup, you guessed it...........his tuner has +5 cents sharp. Uuughhh!!

[Chris Templeton]

Before Tuners, people would get a note from an instrument, usually a piano or a tuning fork, and people would tune to each other.
For years I followed Jeff Newman's tuning method https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/jeff-newman-tuning-charts/
Lots of slightly flat notes and even a couple sharped. I think this is about the guitar being in tune with itself.
Buddy tuned similar to Jeff, but in either the late 80's or early 90's, Buddy said when he played along with the radio, he became dissatisfied with tuning like Jeff and started tuning everything to zero, with slight tweeks to the 3rds and others (E-F),

[Fred Treece]

I can tell immediately when I’m out of tune, but I have never had the ear that some people seem to have for knowing if I’m out sharp or flat. So many things can go through your head. Like, maybe I’m not holding the bar straight, or I’m too far off the fret, or air temperature has sharpened things up or flattened things down, or maybe I’m not the one who is out of tune or the whole band is out. My instinct, unless the working environment has suddenly gotten colder since last tune up, is that guitar strings are more likely to go slack (flat) than tighten (sharp) since they’re constantly being picked on and mercilessly yanked in and out of their standard tuning. So usually my first move is to tune up, after I determine which of the 12 strings are at fault, which is a whole nuther aggravating kettle of fish sticks.

[Lee Baucum]

I can tell immediately when I’m out of tune, but I have never had the ear that some people seem to have for knowing if I’m out sharp or flat.

Me too, Fred. So glad you posted that!

[David Wren]

2 Things....
on vibrato, most experienced players already know this... but when I was young enough to touch my toes, a great Sacramento area player, Jimmy Fox told me to use the vibrato like an opera singer, and slowly increase the vibrato as the note starts to die (rolling the bar, not sliding it back and forth).

Second thing, my friend and fellow forum member Jin Eaton had a bumper sticker that said, "You're not out of tune till the bar stops moving:

[Donny Hinson]

...when "the tonal center" is a bit up for grabs...

Yeah, that's a good point. I've played with bands where that was kind of a moving target.. i.e. the old 'Who do I play in tune with?' question.

Everybody... and nobody. That's where "tonal center" comes in. And yes, sometimes the tonal center is not in tune with any specific player. Your job is to fit in, seamlessly. Practicing with drones is fine, if you think they help you. But it's important to remember that we're seldom playing against a single note. Rather, we are playing with chords formed by the other instruments. Now, there's no question that if there's a keyboard in mix, you'd better be really close to him. He's not playing an instrument of variable pitch, and he can't fudge the bar or push a string. And while I'm touching on the subject of variable pitch, exactly how do you think that violin players manage? They don't have any frets at all, but they manage (usually) to play in tune, don't they? All that to say that I think that some players rely entirely too much on the fretboard. You don't play this thing with your eyes. You've GOT to have the "ear"! If the guitar is in tune with itself, it shouldn't matter whether you're playing on the fret, above the fret, or below the fret! Find the tonal center, then shift your head or your body until your bar visually lines up with the frets and is in tune with the music. It's not rocket science, and it can be done. Buddy even practiced (and occasionally played) without a fretboard on his guitar to prove it could be done. Now, I don't recommend doing that all the time, but practicing occasionally with the fretboard covered up will also help your "ear" training. Sometimes when I practiced, I also played along with records where the song key was in between the frets to hone this skill. You can do it! And if you can't, then....maybe, in certain situations or on certain songs, go ahead and plug in a tuner and watch that. But please, please don't make it a habit! For if you do it all the time, it will certainly ruin whatever ear skills you may have. And that one day when your tuner suddenly quits, you won't be dead in the water. "Use it or lose it", as the saying goes. That's just the way it is.

[Fred Treece]

We’re talking about multiple types of tuning issues. One, when your playing sounds out of tune with other instruments, and the other being when your steel is out of tune with itself. The 3rd rail of tuning disasters is when both occur simultaneously, which is naturally going to happen when the steel is out of tune with itself. So that would be the first thing I would check and remedy.

What do you do if the open strings are in tune but one or more of your changes are out? Avoid those levers and pedals until break, I suppose. Or vibrato the hell out of them.

Donny, when you say “get close” to being in tune with a keyboard player, do you tune your steel differently from normal? Or is it more just about bar placement and voicing? My approach has been to tune the same as always, and just try to stay the heck out of his way. If he is a busy chordy player covering the entirety of the 88-note range, I will stick to single notes, dyads, and silence. If the player knows how to work with a pedal steel in the group and has some semblance of what democracy sounds like, then I take a few more liberties when I can.

I usually practice with a keyboard in the backing track, so playing live with a keyboard player has never really unsettled me more than the usual excitement. Just curious about what you meant by that comment.

[Donny Hinson]

Donny, when you say “get close” to being in tune with a keyboard player, do you tune your steel differently from normal? Or is it more just about bar placement and voicing?

Fred, I tune JI or very close to JI, and that can prove problematic, depending on what the keyboard is playing. Normally, when the keys are being played in mid-register, I do resort to playing only two notes. I do that because it's easy to get those two strings in perfect tune with bar placement and position. (Buddy Emmons did the same thing, playing lots of two note intervals instead of three or four-string chords.) The "problematic" part comes in when the two notes are on adjacent strings, and more bar manipulation is required. Of course, if the steel is out of tune with itself, then you're up the creek without a paddle, and there's almost no way to "play" it in tune with any method because you're compensating (fighting) on two fronts, with the steel itself, and with the band.

To me, the real beauty of the pedal steel is that we can usually get things sounding in "perfect" tune - meaning no beats. (Lloyd is the undisputed master of this.) This does, however, sometimes limit the chords we can play. Many players use a tempered tuning; you know, plus this and minus that, this many cents off on this string and pedal, etc, etc. I choose not to do that because my ear absolutely hates dissonance, those warbly beats that pop out when things aren't right and you're holding a chord, especially on E9th where we're doing chords with long duration. It's not as bad on fast stuff, or on C6th, where most players aren't holding fuller chords on slow songs. The faster stuff, or the moving chords and voicings simply don't stick out that badly. It's kinda like juggling, in that the more stuff you're juggling (notes and changes, in our case), the more skill and concentration you need to keep everything from falling apart. I also think this is the reason that many new players are going the "textural playing" route, where they're just layering on simple chords and pads; less skill and seat-time is required for that type of stuff, but they can still enjoy some of the flavor of the instrument and have some fun creating different sounds.

[Fred Treece]

Thanks for that clear explanation, Donny.

[Dave Grafe]

Reece said "I let my eyes start the move and my ears finish it."

Playing music requires being able to play in tune with oneself and the ensemble, and that requires ears that can tell when it is and is not working. Other than fixed-pitch keyboards all instruments are inherently out of tune with themselves and the player must compensate for this in real time BY EAR. There is no other solution, using a "sweetened" tuning and practicing with metronome and tuner can help to increase accuracy in general bit the ears have to do the work of letting us know what is necessary when playing with others. No tuner can ever tell us if we're in tune with those around us, and even with a sweetening scheme playing in tune with ourselves requires discerning ears and constant adjustment. Trying to perform while watching a tuner is a guaranteed losing game, even the most accurate tuners have latency and the perfectly tuned note in one key will be miserably out of tune in any other key. If your ears can't sort it it's possibly best to focus on playing piano, which has extra strings tuned sharp and flat of the ET center to facilitate this law of physics, or synths which have introduced cyclic modulation to achieve the same ends.

[David Wisson]

Hi All I think having your guitar tuned properly is the most important thing. Timing the pulls and setting the stops. If the Steels in tune you can concentrate more on your playing. It makes you sound better which intern encourages you to try harder. Also out of tune instruments drive me mad ie Bagpipes ahhhhh Dave

[Bill Terry]

Also out of tune instruments drive me mad ..

... and let's not even start on the front guy who slaps a capo on his acoustic with absolutely zero regard for our frail sensitivities around 'being in tune'...

[Donny Hinson]

Hi All I think having your guitar tuned properly is the most important thing. Timing the pulls and setting the stops.

Having the guitar in tune is necessary.
Timing all the pulls exactly (something that many players obssess over), is not.
As long as the strings start and stop in tune, it doesn't matter much if one string starts or stops before another.
I know that some may think otherwise, but listenting to stuff cut on an early Fender 1000 will prove the point. Keep in mind thet there were no timing adjustments on those early Fenders! There was no way to time the pulls, zero, zed, zilch, none. And yet, many fine players played fine music on those old guitars. Players like Ralph Mooney, Jay McDonald, Buddy Emmons, Stu Basore, Red Rhodes, Weldon Myrick, Speedy West, Buddy Merrill, and many others played lots of great music on those guitars.

Yep, even that famous "Together Again" cut featuring Tom Brumley was done on a guitar that had no timing adjustments.

Stop obsessing over the trivial stuff. Just tune up and play.

(Here's an album by Johnny and Jack that features Buddy playing his Fender 1000.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAgBao7eY8g

[Bobby D. Jones]

Another thing that is important for a steel guitar playing in tune, With its self and the band. Is getting a guitar acclimated to the location temperature. And getting the strings to their neutral place. Raised and lowered strings that set for awhile, Have to be raised and lowered a few cycles till they find their neutral place. Then a guitar can be tuned. And the guitar will hold its tuning, While playing.

[Dan Kelly]

I have a Peterson Tuner and just decided to use SE9 very early on. I don't know why... I guess someone just suggested it and it stuck. Over the years I have experimented with just about every other variable related to the PSG... just not the SE9 setting.

Joe Rogers suggested I take a look at that a couple of days ago and suggested the Sid Hudson setting. Tried it and love it. It produces a smooth sound without the "edge" I got on my steel with the SE9. YMMV.

[Jim Palenscar]

Dave Grafe said "Trying to perform while watching a tuner is a guaranteed losing game". I would say that is a true statement - especially if you have to look away from the the instrument. In my case I mounted the lil tuner at the 12th fret on the front apron so it is basically in my line of sight already. I probably tune 8-10 guitars a day at my shop and have for the past 25 years and I've been playing for 52 years and my ears are pretty good however there are situations that, as I learned on a recent YouTube video of my band, I can be better. Donny said that having the changes balanced is not necessary and I take issue with that- especially since a good majority of my work is just that - getting the balance as close as possible. While it may not be necessary I defy anyone to choose to play a guitar that is not balanced(having the changes start and stop simultaneously) over one that is- there is no comparison. An analogy that I'm sure Donny understands could be made of driving a car with a spark plug wire disconnected. Sure it will get you there- but why wouldn't you want to fix it? A common scenario is where the 5th string on an E9th tuning starts before the 10th(or the 3rd string before the 6th). Most players that I know sit with their feet resting or hovering over the pedals and if the pulls are not balanced it's not hard to very slightly depress the pedal just a titch putting the guitar out of tune as one string has started prior to the other. Having the balance properly done pretty much obviates this problem as depressing the pedal pretty much has to be intentional.

[Donny Hinson]

Donny said that having the changes balanced is not necessary and I take issue with that- especially since a good majority of my work is just that - getting the balance as close as possible. While it may not be necessary I defy anyone to choose to play a guitar that is not balanced(having the changes start and stop simultaneously) over one that is- there is no comparison.

Jim, what I actually said was:

Having the guitar in tune is necessary.
Timing all the pulls exactly (something that many players obssess over), is not.

I used the word exactly for a reason. Because, in the case of timing, "close" is good enough. There are some players who think 14-hole pullers are necessary, and anything less is a compromise or a defect. I don't have to refute that idea, as the pedal steel community as a whole already has. All you have to do is look at most all of the top-of-the-line guitars out there and you will find they do not use pullers with more than 4 or 5 holes. Guitars like the Franklin, the new MSA, the new Sho~Buds (some of which go for over $10,000) all make do with less than absolute perfection in this area. Why? Because you can't hear it and it really doesn't affect playing, and those are things that matter to me. Your analogy of an 8-cylinder car running on 7 cylinders is not really a germane comparison; as you can both hear and feel that difference. A more suitable automotive-based comparison might be keeping 30 p.s.i of air in your tires vs. 30.3 p.s.i., or getting 35 mpg vs. 34.6 mpg. Meh, as Mr. Carlucci would say, not enough to worry about. And certainly not enough to spend considerable time on when other things (like playing) are more important.

Pedal steelers are an odd bunch, I should know, because I've been one since the mid '60s, and followed them before that. They can be quite persnikety, quick to jump on the bandwagon of any idea that they are told will make them sound better. But, sad to say, there are no shortcuts - you can't "buy" the sound. In truth, what yeilds the biggest and most noticeable improvement is practice, practice, and more practice. I watch videos sometimes, and on more than one occasion I've seen a video of a roomfull of pedal steelers all playing, trying their hearts out at playing the same song. And in exactly none of these videos have I ever gotten the impression that any of the players would have sounded noticeably better if he had a different (better?) guitar or amp. Yes, in pains me to say it, but in every case, I find the weakest link to be the player. I never look down on a player because of what he plays; I've seen too many players with less than ideal gear blow away players with all the very best gear. In the end, it's not what you play, it's how well you play it that matters.

Be honest, would you rather sit down and listen to me on a brand new $10,000+ guitar, or hear Buddy, Lloyd, or Paul playing one of their old guitars?

[Donny Hinson]

(deleted - duplicate post)

[Jim Palenscar]

Sorry Donny but you are right- I would choose Buddy . And seat time is the only avenue to arriving at tone- I absolutely agree that it is not the equipment ("it ain't the meat it's the motion") but primarily the right hand IMHO. My point is that if you're fighting the instrument for whatever the reason or your technique you should get it fixed as it can only enhance your playing by wanting to play more. In my case I heard some stuff that made me cringe from my own playing so I took steps to correct it. It matters not how one goes about it- as long as you fix whatever problem is bugging you(and others).

[Dave Grafe]

Still...Buddy, Shot, Jimmy, Maurice and others wasted no time in producing bellcranks and changers with multiple raise and lower ratios to clean up the action of their guitars, and Buddy went on to play several precision guitars made by others. I love to practice on my old push-pull because it sounds sublime and makes me work for it, but I take the Zum out to work because it's far easier to play without thinking about anything but the music, which is after all my ultimate intention.

[Richard Lester]

I've been a musician/singer for 65 years and have played thousands of various venues and I have to agree with Donny and Paul Franklin about tuning to the band[ using your ear]. Tuners are ok but they aren't precise when playing with a band. I used to tune my guitars by ear and was right on pitch as long as the intonation was accurate. I've been using a strobe tuner to get me near the tuning then finish fine tuning by ear-works for me.