Watching Mike Neer, Kayton Roberts, Chris Skruggs, or even a pedal player like Lloyd Green who got on steel before pedals does make me question all the pedals and levers somewhat . More seriously, it inspires me to play some lines with slants instead or explore combinations of slants + pedal moves that wouldn't be possible without both.
I'm not totally sure I get the "not-chromatic" thing. I suppose I don't personally have a desire to play ungodly fast, but those who do always seem to combine speed picking, pedals, and bar movements already. Making it chromatic seems like, choosing a position/pocket and using the bar and pedals to add in your chromatic notes. Maybe someone more opinionated or experience could shine some light there...
C6=Am7=Fmaj9 / Cm6=Am7b5=F9 is basic harmonic theory, not really exclusive to anyone.
Barry Harris is known for his development and exploration of the Major and Minor Sixth Diminished scale, among other things.
All the chords diatonic to the major scale and all its modes are available in the M6° scale, as well as all the fun stuff that can be done with that added b6.
Same with the m6° scale. Anything diatonic to melodic or harmonic minor is all there, plus adding the b6 to one and the 6 to the other. There is some wild stuff in there!
I don’t understand the “borrowing” concept, but that may be due to learning jazz harmony from a different method. It just sounds unnecessarily complicated. If you want to play a minor 3rd over a major 7th chord with a major 3rd in it, there’s no law that says you can’t, but I suggest resolving it somehow, or using it as a passing tone. A minor chord with a maj7 is a totally different story. I don’t really see anything Barry Harris-ish about either idea. Is it in one of the posted videos?
PS I would like to thank Tim T and Joseph C and others for posting the YouTube links. I subscribed to a couple of them.
One thing, at least in my practice, is that Barry's method is less a "theory" in the same sense that classical analysis or even scale modes and jazz is. It's more a set of constraints to help explore sonic spaces - a generative tool for generating tension and movement over static chords. It doesn't technically give you any new sounds that you don't find in conventional approaches, there are only 12 notes after all. But, the approach and organization of concepts is more playful than the berklee school of thought so it works better with some minds.
It's similar to Pat Martino's ideas of just using different m7 for every chord. Cmaj7 → Am7, G7 → Dm7, Eø7 → Gm7. It technically does the same thing as organizing in modes, but it simplifies in a way that pushes the theory out of your mind more and lets you focus on melody. The 6° concept is a similar reduction but for harmony.
I don't like thinking of 6° as a scale, its more useful as two chords, one are your stable notes, the other are your tensions which resolve. Barry does have other "theories" around melodic Chromaticism but I'm not up to speed on that.
For mΔ7 sounds that'd just be from the m6° in Cm:
Cm6 - C E♭ G A (1, ♭3, 5, 6) D°7 - D, F, A♭, C♭/B (2, 4, ♭6, ♯7)
I also want to add an example of borrowing in a chord scale. Guitar voicings because I haven't really got into laying this stuff out on pedal steel. This is what I'd use over a Cm.
Cm6° Drop2 chord scale no borrowing (going up through inversions, using B for readability):
C, G, A, E♭
D, A♭, B, F
E♭, A, C, G
F, B, D, A♭
etc.
Cm6° with borrowed note from the chord above in the alto voice:
C, G, B, E♭
D, A♭, C, F
E♭, A, D, G
F, B, E♭, A♭
etc.
Some sound examples because this all means nothing if it's not on an instrument https://soundcloud.com/lee-daniel-gauth ... 6-examples. In the alto borrowing case I can name a few of these chords with traditional labels, but I'm just thinking Cm6 and D°7 inversions.
Excuse the playing I haven't practised the m6° variants enough
Not to add to the overload, but I am also a guitar player and just found this book. The piano videos are helpful, but I always think in guitar. Still no Barry Harris method for steel guitar if anyone out there is ambitious! https://archive.org/details/alan-kingst ... 1/mode/2up
Yeah, that Alan Kingstone book is great. I have worked through that book on 6 string twice over the last last 15 years. Every time I crack it open I find new ideas I missed previously.
Roni was a longtime Barry student. This book covers the single note improvisation side of Barry's method. There are rules for adding chromatic notes depending on which beat you start on to ensure you hit strong chord tones on strong beats.
These two books together are a pretty good intro to Barry's overall approach for 6 string standard guitar.
I think once I get the harmonic side under control on C6 I will start to work through the Talk Jazz book, trying to adapt it to the C6 neck.
Joseph,
Thanks for the link to the book.
Ted Greene has been my guru for both single-note and chord study - 30 years and counting now. His books are very thorough. I am in the process of skimming BH and comparing the two approaches, but I am a crummy student. My real problem is I am not really a big fan of jazz music, especially bebop and modern non-linear. I am appreciative though, and I study it because it helps me stay interested in destroying the pop music I have ended up playing forever.
Here's something I did a few years ago for a seminar that never happened. I'm thinking I need to go back and do some updating since I've learned a lot about it since then....
-----------------------------------------------------
The 6th Diminished Scale for Pedal Steel
I recently had a bit of a revelation while recovering from a not
too serious surgery. On the first day of my recovery, just by
good fortune, I found a YouTube video of jazz great pianist and
educator Barry Harris. He was showing his improvisational jazz
piano class a "new" scale and system of harmony that he claims
to have discovered. He was doing amazing things by applying
this harmonized scale to standard tunes! Looking into it a little
further, I've found that he is really credited as the guy who
"discovered" this Harmonic Rosetta Stone of a scale.
I was intrigued!
Since I have found no information on how to apply this to the
Pedal Steel guitar, I thought I'd figure out how it lays out on the
tunings I'm most familiar with...E9 and C6... and it lays out really
well! I think it can unlock many secrets that we are all looking
for in understanding our instrument and the larger universe of
Musical Harmony in general!
____________________________________________________
The "6 Diminished Scale" can be made up of both the
traditional Major or Minor scales, but with the addition of ONE
NOTE..... the #5. I will explain...
For example, in the Key of C Major, you have the usual
1,2,3,4,5,6,7, and octave...but by adding one more note, the #5,
you have the C Major 6 diminished scale. i.e. 1,2,3,4,5,#5,6,7,
and octave. An 8 note scale.
The same concept works for minor. All you have to do is flat the
3rd.
The fun starts when you harmonize the scale. This also explains
why the #5 note was included.
The concept is extremely simple and symmetrical; the scale is
built by using only 2 chords.... a Major 6 chord with its 4
inversions, and a Diminished 7 chord and of its 4 inversions.
e.g. A C6 chord is made up of C (1), E (3), G (5), and A (6)
Note* this is a 4 note chord- this entire concept is based on
this! ( *Music Theory fact*---The Major 6 is the first chord
created after you extend the Major Triad by adding the next
note in the Major Scale. i.e. the 6....totaling to 4 notes.)
Now learn all of the "inversions" of this C6 chord. e.g. First
inversion starts on C ( the root--- 1 ), it's second inversion, is the
same chord, but starts on the E (or 3rd) ... this same thing goes
for the 5th and 6th intervals too. There are only 4 inversions
with each starting on one of the notes of the chord it’s made of.
Now play a 4 note D Diminished 7 chord. (Starting on the 2nd
degree of the C scale)
D (2), F (4) ,G# (#5), and B (Maj7)
Note that this chord also has just 4 inversions.
If we mash the 6 chord and the Diminshed7 chord together by
alternating every other note with the next inversion of each
chord, the notes will create a harmonized C Major Scale, but
with one additional note in the scale….. the #5... Creating an 8
note scale.
The C diminished 6 scale is made up of 2 parent chords:
C6:
C (1)
Ddim7:
E (3)
G (5)
A (6)
D (2) F (4) G# (#5) B (7)
The C minor diminished 6 scale is just the same, but with a b3
(Eb)
_______________________________________________
I have tabbed out the harmonized scales on both the C6 and E9
pedal steel tunings. Both are in the key of E and both contain
the exact same notes. I decided to show the examples in E to
make it a little more E9 friendly.
Note*- the bottom note of each chord corresponds to each of
the 8 note scale degrees.
Note** The UP/Down Arrow signify which pedal and KL
combination to use. e.g. on E9, a down arrow on string 8 is the
E-Eb lower, whereas 2 up arrows on string 10 is the B-C# raise
( the "A" pedal)
Once again, keep in mind that every other chord in the
harmonized scale will be either an inversion of a Maj6, (or
minor 6 chord-in the minor scale) and a Dim7 chord. Starting
with the 6 chord. (In this case the key of E)
Notes on C6:
This concept really lays out well on C6 due to the fact that the
open tuning is a 6 chord! If your copedant doesn't have the A
Bb change on one or both A strings, remember that the trick is
to alternate 6 chords and diminished 7 chords every other scale
degree starting with the bottom note of each chord. It's all
there; you just might have to move your bar a little more. You
just have to look for it... I'm sure there are many ways to arrive
at the same end. Also, since these are all 4 note examples on
adjacent strings, it is possible to "rake" the chords if you are like
most and use only 3 picks.
This is probably the same approach to take on a U12 tuning
also... i.e. in "6 mode".
Notes on E9:
I think this concept on E9 could possibly be a game changer for
some, in 2 important ways:
1.) Thinking from the "bottom up" of the tuning, and just
understanding the low strings in general. It can be enlightening
to know things like the 10th string open at fret 5 is an E note,
and that open strings 10, 9, and 7 are a minor triad....etc. etc.
2.) A lot of E9 players are interested in getting C6 sounds on
their tuning. This concept is tailor made for this!
*Remember* though that to really "get" this you must think in
terms of 4 note chords, which might be a problem at first for
some 3 pick users. You will have to either arpeggiate each
chord, as there is one string skipped in each one, or just bring
your 3rd finger into play. I promise it's worth the effort!
________________________________________________
A couple other things to consider:
The whole idea of this is to learn how the diminished chord is
used as a "Passing Chord" in different situations. This goes for
almost every kind of music!
Using this scale in fragments to connect chords in a musical
progression is the goal.
For example, it is possible to use the Maj6 scale as a substitution for it's
relative minor. e.g. the E6 as a C#min etc.
HAVE FUN!
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Thanks, Rick. As an E9/ext player, I appreciate this concept being, uh, extended…to the “other” neck. I’m working it out with my copedent, which I partially based on yours, and it lays out beautifully.
Fred, Ted Greene is still a huge influence in my guitar playing and have been working on his books for quite a few years before I found Barry. For me a perfect guitar method would be the "Guitar-istic" aspects for Ted's work + the organization of Barry.
How have you found moving his harmony work to pedal steel? Stylistically I'd love to work up to a Ted Greenish sound on pedal steel, but from a layout standpoint his approach seemed too guitar specific to bother with. Maybe I should just take some chord alchemy phrases and translate to steel...
His single note books seem like they'd be good wholesale on pedal steel tho.
Two other books, I saw someone else on the forum mention "Jerry Bergonzi - Melodic structures". The approach seems like it'd apply on all instruments, but the way it starts organizing melodic cells lays out really nice on E9.
The approach presented in "Modalogy: Scales, Modes & Chords - The Primordial Building Blocks" is also particularly useful on steel. Maybe more so on E9 and non-pedal. A big chunk is superimposing basic major scales over different roots. Example a Db scale over a C7:
Db → b9
Eb → #9
F → 3
Gb → #11
Ab → b13
Bb → b7
C → root
Sometimes you get rootless scales and other interesting quirks. Interesting read.
I haven't really put in much work on steel with any of these jazz-y ideas. I told myself I can get a delay pedal if I learn all the the steel parts on "Sweetheart of the Rodeo" so thats the focus for now.
Thanks Rick for posting that! I was going to try to figure out how to tab some of this out, but you saved me the trouble.
I give Rick credit for pointing out the fact that Barry's harmonic ideas fit so well on the C6 neck. I had been using it on guitar for several years and the thought never occurred to me to try to apply it to steel until I saw Rick post about it on the forum several years ago.
I have tried everything over the years on regular guitar - chord-scale theory, etc. The thing I like about Barry's method is that it sounds like music, not scales or exercises. The other thing I like is that no two Barry students sound the same, it just provides a foundation to develop your own style and isn't limited to early 50's bebop necessarily.
Lee,
A lot of Ted Greene’s chord stuff does not transfer to E9 very well. That tuning is made for close-voicing, whereas Ted’s intervals often lead to wide open chords covering two octaves or more. The grips are either not possible or not practical. Fragmenting the voices and arpeggiating them over multiple frets can work, if you don’t have to tap dance around a bunch of pedals and levers.
Fortunately, 9th tuning is very convenient in another way for jazz, because dom9th chord voicings are every bit the Swiss Army knife maj6th’s are, if not more so.
I have just recently embarked on the Barry Harris thing, but it has already proven its value to me. I have underestimated the value of diminished chords, mostly because that sound is so rare in pop music
The TG method is almost too comprehensive. I never really “completed” it, because it was impossible given my life circumstances. But it allows for exploration, and I can already see the same is true for BH.
One thing I have to keep in mind is to put new concepts and principles to work in an actual musical context. If I don’t (or can’t) use something I’ve learned from a method in a song within a few days, I lose interest and the lessons never take root. I love studying this stuff, but I have to be able to put it to practical use too. I think both Ted Greene and Barry Harris had me figured out
With a C>C# Lever and an A>A# Lever on opposing knees plus P5 And P6 there are 16 possible combinations that are very powerful to realize Barris concept:
In all cases the next Inversion for a certain chordtype is always 3 frets away. It is easy to construct the Chordscales for Maj6Dim and Min6Dim and also for the less important Dom7Dim and Dom7b5Dim in a „sliding“ fashion horizontally on the fretboard
I have just recently embarked on the Barry Harris thing, but it has already proven its value to me. I have underestimated the value of diminished chords, mostly because that sound is so rare in pop music
For anyone reading this who is confused or doubtful about this approach, it is worth sticking with it. This thread has taken me back into this stuff and I have had a few realizations that weren't immediately obvious.
Once you learn how to play the Major and minor 6th diminished scales in all 12 keys harmonized up and down the neck (still working on this!) and understand the rules of where to use these, you might still be a little underwhelmed. The how to use them isn't completely obvious. For me the real beauty isn't in seeing these as separate chords, it is more like a palette of colors where the borrowing of notes yield infinite combinations. I like to think of each chord inversion as surrounded by the other 2. Each 6th chord surrounded by 2 diminished chords or likewise.
You can also think of each diminished chord as a dominant chord and moving through the scale is more like 1-5-1-5 etc. Tension- release -tension -release etc. This stuff just goes deeper and deeper. I know Barry even called himself a student and was still learning and discovering all the way.
I don't think this is a wholesale replacement for classical theory, but if you are frustrated with that approach this may open some doors. I know it has for me.
Marco, that list of positions is great. Tuning seems kind of interesting some of these pedal combos don't seem exactly in tune. I'm not sure if that's because of how I tune my guitar, or if I'm just not pedaling them with enough confidence because some pedal combos are a little awkward on my guitar. Still a chance you'd need to tune straight up for everything to sound good.
The most awkward for me is any combo of C# and P5 because I have P5 as a vertical lever on the same knee as C#. I can get both at once but I'm not used to doing it. Time to practise.
On my guitar I have a modified version of Bob Lees D6th Hybrid Copedent and first I also used his Meantone tuning offsets. Some of those chords are a bit off and ET seems to be more suited.
I see the difficulty with Your lever placement. Is it on Your D13th PSG or another with C6 neck?
I have the C# (actually D# in my case) on LKR and the A# (C for me) on RKR on purpose to make those chord movements better accessible.
Marco Coblenz wrote: 11 Mar 2025 3:32 am
With a C>C# Lever and an A>A# Lever on opposing knees plus P5 And P6 there are 16 possible combinations that are very powerful to realize Barris concept:
Wow, thanks for posting this! The inversion I was missing was that 3rd inversion of the C6. I could get it partially with P7. The idea of using 2 pedals and 2 knee levers at the same time never occurred to me, so thanks for that! That was the missing position to make it really flow up and down the neck!
I think for your minor 6 you might have pedal 5 and 6 reversed?
Marco, this is on my D13 using a meantone for tuning. I forget if I'm using 3.5c or 5c offsets.
I think the two knee levers at once is something I can learn, but I'm thinking of swapping my Franklin pedal and my vertical that is P5. That'd give me a little more normal C6th pedals. We'll see, every time I think about changing my copedent I just learn to play my guitar better as is instead .
On my guitar I have str 2 as the b7 so the A# (c for us) I don't use a lever for.
One other idea I've toyed with is putting my P5 on RKL. RKR is my chord that gives me the lowest 3 notes of C6, so RKL needs to be a lever I wouldn't use with, 1 -> b1 is a good RKL because I have a bunch of other ways to get the same notes.
If I wasn't playing D13 I think my ideal setup for C6 or E9 would just have both 1 -> #1 and 1 ->b1 levers on my right knee and everything else on the left knee.
Lee, I only use 2.5c offsets. Your offsets are bolder which probably contributes to the out of tune perception for certain chords …
P5 and P6 in C6 are like A and B in E9, meaning they are best as adjacent pedals for me. I see that some people put one or the other on a lever to make all combinations with P7 possible w/o two footing, but I like it better so. I’d have rather P7 on a lever.
Putting the Franklin on a knee therefore sounds good to me. I have the Franklin on LKLo. I also use it with a halfstop that gives me kind of a mini P5 as a second option instead of the P5 Pedal. Maybe this could be something for You, too?
By the way, this what I like D6th over D13th for: I don’t need no RKR for the 6 tuning bottom notes. I have 6# and 6b on the right knee and 1# and 1b on the left.
I just checked and I'm using 2.5c as well. I think I am going to commit to the PF and P5 swap.
I think as a "universal" D6th and D13th both feel less biased to me than the E9/B6 approach because your root doesn't change. But they do still have a preference to either the 9th tuning or 6th tuning somewhat. I want to think 9th tuning first and have a way to add 6th tuning in. I get the appeal of something like Bobs D6 tho and having some E9th sounds on a 6th focused setup.
My first guitar was the top 6 strings of Bobs tuning and the bottom 4 strings of a standard D9. I only had the normal E9 style pedals and levers other than a lever for 6 -> b7 -> 7. My goal was just to have my old lap steel intervals with no pedals, but mostly be E9.
Using the additional positions that Marco was kind enough to share, I made updated charts that also include the passing diminished chords.
These new positions and the ordering of the inversions cracks open the whole neck.
The pattern is the same for both scales - whole step - half step - whole step - half step etc.
All the inversions and diminished chords are 3 frets apart from each other
You can play up and down the scale freely without ever moving your foot out of position for pedals 5 and 6. Switching over to P7 for some chords slowed down the smooth transitions.
The symmetry and underlying logic of the whole concept really becomes apparent playing through these scales.
Anyway, there might be some errors in here, I just threw this together on my lunch break:
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. More seriously, it inspires me to play some lines with slants instead or explore combinations of slants + pedal moves that wouldn't be possible without both.
